Fuel for thought
Someone responding to the post below mentioned something I've noticed for a long time. Whenever there's a fire of consequence in the city, the building often is a total loss.
There were some specifics mentioned in the post and I can think of a half dozen more.
Now I appreciate the fire department. Even before it ran an ambulance service I think they did wonderful work as paramedics and EMTs -- really making a life and death difference. And I'm not suggesting they're overstaffed rank-and-file-wise. But can anyone explain why fires generally consume structures in the city? Is it because of the age of the buildings, fire code violations, overzealousness on the part of firefighters to chop a smoldering building to smithereens? Lack of adequate equipment?
Or is my perception way off on this?
There were some specifics mentioned in the post and I can think of a half dozen more.
Now I appreciate the fire department. Even before it ran an ambulance service I think they did wonderful work as paramedics and EMTs -- really making a life and death difference. And I'm not suggesting they're overstaffed rank-and-file-wise. But can anyone explain why fires generally consume structures in the city? Is it because of the age of the buildings, fire code violations, overzealousness on the part of firefighters to chop a smoldering building to smithereens? Lack of adequate equipment?
Or is my perception way off on this?
posted by The Observer at 5/30/2007 01:04:00 PM
20 Comments:
If every house had a sprinkler system, they probably wouldn't be a total loss. Unfortunately most of the losses are due to the age of the house, and lack of proper (now mandatory) fire separations. The fire next to the Firestone dealer went quickly due to its age. It didn't hurt that there was no water to put it out, but it probably still would have evaporated. I remember the old Mad Hatter (next to the thrift shop)burning down back in the early seventies. It went up quick and took the building next to it as well, again due to lack of fire separation. The new fire codes are more expensive to comply with, but they certainly make the buildings safer, not only to the residents, but also to the neighbors.
Response time from the fire department probably wouldn't make a huge difference if it were two or three minutes later due to a train. Close the satellite stations and get together with the train operators to get their schedules. Have a fire truck strategically placed in the event a fire should occur during peak times. The firemen are out at various times of the day anyways, so schedule the runs to the grocery store around these peak times.
Everyone appreciates the fire department, but our infrastructure shouldn't have to continue crumbling simply because we need to employ enough firefighters to staff three stations. Firefighters that live outside of the city limits continue to argue about the level of service the city should provide, but they choose to provide their own families with a low level of service due to township fire and ambulance services. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think. Keep me employed so you can provide the absolute best service, but I really don't think I need to provide that to my family. Hmmm!
cityresident - I agree, mostly. I think the biggest reason for these problems is poor water delivery. I would think that doing a little digging one will find that the house that burned on Winchester was not atypical.
Monroe has, probably, too many fire fighters compared to other communities our size and those fire fighters are trying to perform there task with an inadequate fire system. How many fire hydrants are inoperable or not working to capacity?
Has the City done a report (I am being funny, they have) and why has that report not been released?
When fire fighters are required to run water lines nearly 1/4 mile across railroad tracks to fight a fire (where there is a hydrant less than 40 feet from the house) there is a problem. I am all for infrastructure repair - if we will start with items like this and then move to the more visible things.
It kills me the number of times that you hear things like, cold weather, hot weather, age of building and so on as reasons fires were not quelled. Makes me wonder - if all of these play such huge factors (I believe they are factors) then why do we have so damn many fire fighters?
You may have a point regarding understanding when trains are moving across a line. We should at least look into this.
One a side note; I almost forgot about the MadHatter. Man, remember after it burned "EVERYONE" talked about how they had seen Bob Seager there! Got, it sucks getting old.
I think this debate is doing a great job highlighting the challenge facing Monroe.
We can either employee lots of Police, Fire, DPS, Parks and Rec, Planning, ETC employees, or we can take care of the infrastructure.
For me raising the taxes is not a solution.
So - right now we employee lots of very professional, highly trained, dedicated firemen. Every time there is a fire / disaster of any consequence in the area, whether it be Monroe Twp, Frenchtown, wherever we also respond in inter-governmental cooperation. We send our Fire Marshall out also to investigate incidents in these other municipalities, also free of charge. The City Resident is paying to subsidize the life style of the township residents. They get the benefit of the service, but don't pay the bill.
Meanwhile, here in the city, if your home / business catches on fire there is an excellent chance it is going to burn to the ground. How can this happen, you ask? Doesn’t Monroe have the largest, best-equipped, most professional fire department? Isn’t our response time the shortest? How can this be?
The answer is in the past we have chosen to have a large work force at the expense of taking care of the infrastructure. The pipes that feed the fire hydrants can’t deliver enough flow / pressure to put out a fire. So – all of our highly trained fire fighters watch the building burn as they run hose to the nearest main that can deliver pressure and flow.
What is the optimum solution? I think the answer has to be we need to dedicate more of the existing resources to fixing the infrastructure. We need to fix our roads and water mains at a faster pace than what we have been doing. This is going to mean we have less of everything, including Police and Fire.
Don’t panic – however. Doesn’t the townships survive with substantially less fire and police protection? If they can do it, we can do it. Can’t we use intergovernmental cooperation to make up for some of the shortfalls? We will have enough capacity to deal with normal events. If we have something extraordinary, then maybe we need to have help from the townships, sheriff, or state police for the duration of the crises.
I can understand why some would say the satellite fire stations are not necessary. However, I think you need to cover all parts of the community with a first response resource that doesn’t require crossing a train track. So – maybe if there is a fire on the west side of Monroe, Frenchtown or Monroe Township dispatches simultaneously with the city. If a train blocks the track, someone still arrives to help. I would hate to have my response situation be only from Monroe, just to find out that CSX is blocking the tracks. They then wait for a while and then call for other departments to respond. Firemen sit 99.9% of the time anyway – so why not scramble everyone in a given region?
So – my worry about the operational assessment is that council will just cut enough to balance the budget. In fact they need to cut enough to balance the budget plus free up a few million to start fixing the cities infrastructure at an accelerated pace. Once everything is repaired – maybe they can even give us a tax cut in twenty or so years.
Some parts of the city could use some urban renewal via the torch! Burn baby burn! Dats da way, bro! Heres I come for gubment housing!
We should not make blanket statements about the fie department’s role as providing ambulance service being either good or bad without facts. Before the current arrangement was in place our rescue service stood by for minutes or longer awaiting the county ambulance provider. Even if the present city service operates at a slight loss, I would rather pay the cost for help being available if needed.
Any section could burn if we do not have good fire departments working in cooperation wirth each other. Likewise, we must have proper water flows available to extinguish a large blaze. When IKO or any successor was operating, those structures were safe from fire. A vacant structure of that size is a disaster waiting to happen without a functioning sprinkler system. With luck, it will take the tower trucks from Monroe Township, Frenchtown Township, and the city just to save nearby homes. An industrial archeological artifact that large should have been allowed to remain in operation for public safety concerns if nothing else. Perhaps someone will resume operation in line with the I-1 zoning designation. The IDC should approach Darling International because this region could use a rendering plant.
Anonymous (previous second and third above), you have again showed your ignorance. Thank you for sharing. What is most entertaining about post is your attempt to not only type (speak) ethnic (i.e. Ebonics) but your general ignorance for any culture or community that is not inbred such as your own.
You have again brought up a horrible accident where a man died after being ran over by a train. Thank you for being inhumane enough to care so little about another human.
Your identification of any part of Monroe as being "urban" and needing renewal does nothing more than tell everyone you have no idea about community classification.
Your assertion that somehow "bro" is living in "government" housing lets all of us know that you have never driven by Greenwood, Park West, Greenwich Manor or any other FHA subsidised housing in Monroe (city or county). If you had you would know that most of the occupants are caucasian, oh sorry - white.
Finally - if your mission was to ensure that you appeared vulgar, ignorant and racist - you have succeeded. I guess the only think I can wonder is who did YOU vote for in the last election?
That's obvious. David Smith apparently cast his vote for his 3C Cronies.
What's this? Dave Smith (aka Genie) calling Jan Jay a troubled individual on the MEN blog?
Um, I mean Smith telling someone else that THEIR troubled? Shows how deluded this guy really is.
Dude, you are one sorry piece of work!
Could have voted in the Iacoheads coalition (bobblehead coalition) then the city would be even more broke.
Looks like this is going to turn into another political rant and rave session. Why?
The 3c coalition is again brought up. What is it that the 3c coalition, or this entire council for that matter, has done wrong? Have they spent money in a bad way? Have they not acted correctly in their decisions to benefit the community as a whole? Please, let me know why this is always such an issue with some people. Give me reasons to not trust this council, because to be honest with you, I have seen no wrong doing. I believe in supporting the individuals who were voted in by a majority of the voters. I may not see eye to eye with each and every one of them on every decision that they make, but as a whole group they seem to be handling a tough economy and tight budget pretty well. So again, please, let me know precisely what it is that they have done wrong. You must know more than I, and I wish to know.
I doubt the 3C coalition has any relation to our anonymous racist / ignorant poster. I have no friendship / relationship to either the current or last administration however, I find it hard to believe that either group is as stupid as anonymous.
Is David Smith "genie" on the MEN bulletin boards? I doubt it - seriously. If you take the time to read Mr. Smith's web site you will find he has difficulty using spell check. This is not something that "genie" shares.
This is what is wrong with the City of Monroe. Because City Government has become such a (to use another poster's vanacular) "Job Program" over the years, Staff and there "special interest" (i.e. keeping themselves employed) have ran the City more than most of us wish to imagine.
This has, over the years, lead to ineffective Council's who were faced with staff that were either incompetent or willingly would drag there feet knowing that, "they will only be here for 24 months". Think this isn't possible? Consider the last blog about the City of Monroe (Councilwatch Monroe) - was it ran by a City of Monroe staffer as many thought?
Consider where this whole "assessment" of staff started - Interim City Manager / Chief of Police John Michrina during his tenure as "Interim" he wrote one hell of a document that detailed his observations of little work happening and detailed that maybe things should be "streamlined". Funny, wonder if he thought that a great idea to "streamline" would be the Chief of Police position? If you can occupy both for six months then which one does not need to exist? (Toledo has done it: Safety Chief Mike Navvarre).
The three C's - if they exist and I don't believe they do - seem to be reasonable people. I don't like everything they do - so what. I respect John Martin, Bill Burkett, Al Capuccilli bunches. I respect Brian Beneteau but will admit at times (like on this board) I think he makes choices I don't get; arguing with dumb people. I think Ed Paisley is a decent guy. I believe he made a mistake voting as a councilmember to give his friend / landlord / client a tax abatement on 11 Washington - but, he was one of only seven votes - he will have to live with his own conscience and if he believes it's clear, who the hell am I to protest? I won't spend anytime addressing Councilwoman Compora or Edwards. I will just offer this; what have you done? Ms. Compora is completing her second term - has her tenure been fruitful for district? Ms. Edwards has been on council well, forever, I would ask the same thing.
Cityresident, you are right, we should support this council. I wish that we (citizens) could work with the City to build on the need to restructure and recreate our City government. I think that we have done that with many of the post on here.
I also think that things will become more hateful and polarized before all is said and done. When people are faced with the loss of there livelihood expect them to fight. With an election looming how "backed into a corner" will Councilwoman Compora and her supporters become? Notice that many of those "supporters" that came out in favor or keeping Monroe Transfer from opening have said nothing about "R & M Recycling" (Dixie Highway - Old Monroe Fence Building) from opening. Isn't it odd that we would have such a business opening right next to the War of 1812 Battlefield? Do we REALLY think that the National Park Service is going to like that? I digress, not a peep was made - why?
So, I think we are at a crossroad - Monroe can move forward with less staff, less services but improved basic infrastructure or we can continue down the road with the "job program". Isn't it ironic that the anonymous poster that has lead me to writing this spoke of "gubment" programs - we have a great one here in Monroe - employment for life, good medical, dental, vision benefits. Excellent retirement benefits. So, anonymous why are you trying to make this a race issue? What you seem to be against has been going on at 120 East First for a long time - is there a reason you have not wanted that to end?
You know - this is a big part of the reason we have problems getting different people to either run for office or apply for boards.
A bit of clarification on how a ZBA should base their vote is in order. A vote must be based on analysis of a number of factors and justice must be provided whatever that may be. Often the kindest answer is NO!
In the case of Monroe Transfer their proposed use was obviously that of a permitted I-2 use subject to a CPC site plan review. All that the ZBA was doing was a lawful act of an interpretation of the zoning code where there was confusion. This 3C crap sounds like more lf Linda Compora’s Crap. I believe in the rule of law and honest government not mob rule or lying under oath for vengeful reasons.
It is clear that Councilperson Compora has gone out of her was to foment hate over The Monroe Transfer property rights issue. She is a very hateful person and could benefit from counseling in anger control and logical problem analysis. Her family is well thought of in Monroe. How she has come to be so full of hate and venom is unclear.
Help with spelling or other information on www.historicmonroe.org is always appreciated. The information on the Sawyer house has been corrected and apology made to Jeff Green for my error. Alacajun has made many good postings.
Why is Linda Compora reported to be running Amuck in Saint John’s Parish House asking people to help her pray the Monroe Stalker into Hell?
If we all had guns and sprinkler systems we wouldn't need either the police or the fire.
I already have guns - I guess I could buy a sprinkler system if a tax cut was offered.
I think the poster speaking in Eubonics was just trying to employ a little sarcasm. Alacajun recognized the point that what was being railed against was excessive, wasteful government.
It is not right that we have to support people who don't wish to provide for themselves. It is also not right that we have a city full of surplus employees. Why should I have to work 12 hours per day under stressful conditions when many employees in the city hall have a country club job with no expected output.
Alacajun - thanks for noting the point that was trying to be made in Eubonics. I think you got it right on the head.
Finally - I am tired of planners from Ida and Monroe Township dictating what happens to my neighborhood. They frankly are not professionals, basing their decisions on personal considerations and preferences instead of professional ones. Why should we care what a planner from Ida wants in the city? Why do we employ a historic planner who sold his historic home in the city to buy a new home in Monroe Township? I hope they are no longer employed by the city in one month.
Sometimes subtraction is the best way to add value.
Anonymous said:
Why should I have to work 12 hours per day under stressful conditions
The answer most certainly is WHY! Unless I am mistaken you weren't drafted for your job and nobody held a gun to your head to make you take the job, or to continue to work a job that makes you work 12 hours a day and under stressful conditions. Stop your b***hing and do something about it. Get an education so that you can get a better job. With a little bit of college you can be a planner too!
Anonymous said:
Finally - I am tired of planners from Ida and Monroe Township dictating what happens to my neighborhood. Why do we employ a historic planner who sold his historic home in the city to buy a new home in Monroe Township?
I agree. At the same time, why do we employ police officers who do not live in the city; or firefighters; or DPS employees; or Water Department employees who do not live in the city? Oh, that's right: there is a state law, and a few union contracts, that lets them live outside of the city! I guess that equal protection under the law and fundamential fairness should apply to everyone except city employees.
Anonymous said:
Sometimes subtraction is the best way to add value.
I agree again. Your comment is proof positive of this fact.
Peace.
03 June, 2007
Stupid Jackass,
I am sure I have more degrees than you.
My mistake is I went to work in Automotive as a salaried employee rather than paying the bribe to join the UAW and read the newspaper for a living like you. If I had to do it over I can assure you I wouldn’t make the same decisions, but after 3 degrees my lot is pretty well cast.
I work 12 hours per day like a scarred rabbit, not because I want to but because the job market currently demands it. At my salary level it’s not so easy to find another job with which I can support my family. The company knows this - so they pile on the work until the find the breaking point. This is happening all over in the salaried world, but then I guess you didn’t get past the sports section or comic page to read about that.
Turns out I spend most of my day finding Low Cost Countries to send your stupid menial job to. This way we don’t have to pay you to read the paper – we pay someone else pennies to do the job because they, like me, will also work like a scarred rabbit.
Fortunately for me I know I’m probably out of a job as soon as I train my Mexican and Indian replacements. At that point I’ll be forced to leave Michigan and find a job someplace down south or out west in aerospace, etc. If I’m lucky maybe my current company will transfer me to a still open facility and buy my house in Monroe. The only way I’ll be able to sell it is if the company buys it – god knows there isn’t many buyers out there right now. If the company doesn’t buy it I guess I’ll have to find a nice Section 8 Renter to take it and a management company to collect the rent. One more neighborhood in Monroe will start going down hill then.
I am a dumb ass - I should have gotten my planning degree, which would have taken much less aggravation than the degrees I did earn. I could have then worked 7 hours a day at city hall and had a life. I hear those days may be coming to an end though, so maybe it is good I didn’t make that choice.
Peace - you ignorant dumb ass.
Who are the last few posts aimed at?
Seems we have strayed far from the topic once again.
From reading the previous postings related to the degrees which are held by the posters, it is clear that English, grammar, and punctuation were not required to receive those degrees. If you are going to attack someone, at least do it in correct form and punctuation, not to mention spelling.
Anonymous: Sorry that I seemed to touch a nerve with you concerning your choice of a career. Listening to you complain about your job it’s no wonder that the US auto industry is being lapped by everyone from the Germans to the Koreans.
Whatever happened to real car guys like Henry Ford II who told the world, “never complain; never explain.” You talk about the city job program; well it sounds like you are part of the UAW job program. Remember the good old days of drinking and drugging during the lunch hour; loan sharking, dope dealing and gambling out on the shop floor? Remember that old saying about not buying a car that was built on a Monday or a Friday. It was true - wasn’t it. More important, we did it to ourselves by putting out a poor product. I’ve got a good friend who is high up in GM. He told me that by the end of my life (probably 25 more years if you read the actuarial tables) all cars will be made in China, not in the USA. So enjoy the UAW jobs program and the great benefit package while you can because it is coming to an end soon. You probably drive a Kia or some other off brand car!
I am sorry that you job, and it seems your life, sucks. If work is so bad – leave and get a new job. America is ripe with many everyday success stories of people starting over and having more success than they ever dreamed of. It’s your life; you can do something about it or you can sit back and let it roll over you. You just seem to want to sit back.
I see by your word usage that you are an educated person. I don’t have that much education. I never had much use for a person with more than one degree. I work with a guy who has gotten several degrees (B.S., M.S. Ph.D) and has no common sense or the ability to work with people to inspire more than just what needs to be done to get by. I don't hold people who make it thier life's ambition to accumulate one degree after another in that high of esteem. I have seen too many people move through the educational system and acquire degree after degree while lacking in the most simple reasoning ability and human relationship skills. Perhaps that’s you.
As Coleman Young once said about a political opponent of his, which I believe may be correct about you, “the only thing that he can run is his mouth.”
Peace, amigo.
Anonymous,
Once again I clarify a few points.
1. I am not UAW. Most of my day is in fact spent working to get the content of the vehicle out of the US into great places like China, Mexico, Brazil, Philippines, Eastern Europe, you get the point. I guess I can never run for public office, because I have in fact facilitated sending jobs out of this country.
2. It’s not that I don’t like the job – it’s just that the business is so cut throat now that you can’t live under the illusion that your company cares about you, and will take care of you for your career. The days of spending your whole career with one company and they will take care of you with a sweet pension is pretty well gone – now you must understand you are a tool with a useful life span. It’s pretty well up to you to understand the situation and roll with the punches. So, I train counterparts in Mexico how to do my job full well knowing I could be facilitating my own demise here, and my job could be the next one outsourced. I work 12 hours a day – get paid far more than anyone at the city, and bank the money so I am ready for the career transition that is fairly inevitable.
3. On education I couldn’t agree with you more. There are many idiots out there who are book smart and don’t have any common sense. One that comes to mind is Ben Tallerico working on his PHD while he was at the city. That guy had absolutely no common sense or street smarts. I earned one degree, and then got a few others while I was working. I paid for number one; companies paid for number two and three. It’s funny how a piece of paper can open up some doors that would otherwise be closed. They can also increase your base salary. All it cost me to do it was my evenings and weekends for a few years. Now when / if the end of this job comes, I have the keys to unlock several different doors. Not a bad thing. I also think that with the changing Auto industry there will be many opportunities to free lance to fix issues caused by the transition to China or wherever as your friend predicts. Also not bad to have some diverse education on your resume at that point.
4. For the record I think I got into the auto industry at the wrong time. I think in the 50’s or 60’s it would have been a blast. No foreign competition to speak of, not much government regulation, much optimism and creativity. Now it’s a different place, but I’m going to make the best of it and have what fun I can. In fact the first ten years wasn’t so bad, but it’s been getting worse and worse the last several years. I will make the best of it – save money, get experience, and make contacts. I’m going to make it to the end of my career, but I’m going to have to be flexible and adapt to the conditions to get there.
How does my attitude tie into the city, you ask? I think the city has a large percentage of employees who don’t add much value to the community, and just waste our tax dollars. There hasn’t been much pressure from management at the city for productivity, and councils have been unable to wield much influence. With a two year term its just too easy to stall, sabotage, and wait for the next guy. I hope the expectation of higher output with less people come to the city in the next few months.
So – Peace, moron. Please quit make assumptions. They just make an ass out of you and me.
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